[HiDARG-MEMBERS] Folding HT antenna

Sat Jul 13 19:13:06 EDT 2019

This is getting interesting.  I've been reading up on what other hams have
done and found with regard to HT antennas and testing them.  A standard
reference antenna would be the trusty 1/2 wave dipole at 1dBd.

Typical stock rubber duck antennas are usually about 9 dB down from a
dipole.   The 1/4 wave whips contrary to popular opinion, are generally
down another 2 to 3 dB from the stock rubber ducks rather than being an
improvement they perform worse!!   That's likely because you have half of a
dipole.

Also, a dual-band antenna is always a compromise regardless of length.
That doesn't mean that they can't perform well, it just means that they
will never perform as good as a standard dipole will in a given band.

The 2-inch stubby antennas work ok on UHF, but can damage your radio on VHF
frequencies!  Anything shorter should be avoided because they can damage
your radio!!  All of the power your radio is putting out is dissipated as
heat from the matching coil in the antenna - very little is radiated as RF!!

Generally, a longer antenna will usually perform better, but not always and
most of the clone or knock-off antennas are junk regardless of length.

Here're some links to interesting info on the topic:

https://www.hamradio.me/antennas/ht-antenna-comparisons.html

http://www.miklor.com/COM/UV_Antennas.php

http://www.miklor.com/COM/pdf/AntennaTestingW9MDB.pdf

http://blog.g4ilo.com/2011/04/2m-ht-antenna-shootout.html

Since there seems to be a lot of interest in doing some testing, I propose
that we gather at a designated park either next weekend or the weekend
after.  I have 3 field strength meters, 2 of which I have now tested and
seem to be functional, the 3rd I will likely test in the next day or so.
I'll put together a log form and a test results form and get them copied so
that we will have a master log of the testing and everyone that brings a
radio and antennas to test will go away with written results.  This won't
be fancy, we won't be taking or calculating dB readings or SWR, it will be
a relative reading that will only be applicable to this testing, but it
will tell everyone involved how effective their antennas are compared to
the stock antenna baseline.

Stay tuned for more info!

7  3
Jeff Moore  --  KE7ACY

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:49 AM KI7UNJ Tucker <ki7unj at gmail.com> wrote:

> I’m in for testing and have a ton of stock duckies and a few after markets
> I would like to test.
>
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 9:27 AM Max Vaughan bb <maxv at bendbroadband.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Good stuff….
>>
>> The goal is to figure out if these foldable flat antennas have better
>> performance over the stock duck or aftermarket verticals…
>>
>> It would be interesting to see the actual pattern however.
>>
>> ..Max
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* HiDARG-Members [mailto:hidarg-members-bounces at hidarg.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Doug Miller
>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 13, 2019 08:18
>> *To:* HiDARG Members
>> *Subject:* Re: [HiDARG-MEMBERS] Folding HT antenna
>>
>>
>>
>>  It’s probably obvious, but instead of taking measurements around a
>> circular path, an alternative is to rotate the antenna And record field
>> strength with each antenna orientation.  I’ve done this before with a
>> tripod using 10 or 15 degree increments. This is easy to set up and
>> execute, and also helps eliminate the influences of terrain and surrounding
>> objects.
>>
>>
>>
>>  With these types of tests in the military and aerospace environment I’ve
>> seen labs typically trying to ensure they are taking measurements at least
>> 3 to 5 times the Fraunhofer distance, which is considered the boundary of
>> the radiating near field. For a typical 2 meter antenna this is much less
>> than 100 feet.
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraunhofer_distance
>>
>>
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> W7ZV
>>
>> Sisters
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:59 AM Max Vaughan bb <maxv at bendbroadband.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Extracted from various sources….
>>
>>
>>
>> You should not need more than 100ft circle with no nearby metal or
>> reflective surfaces.
>>
>> Normally used to determine antenna directional patterns, in an ideal
>> setting.
>>
>> Walk around the circle get various readings, and draw on grid paper….
>> that gives you the pattern.
>>
>> But that is not what you’re doing here…. your comparing signal strength
>> over a set distance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Actual distance is less important than getting a relative reading at a
>> set distance and comparing that same
>>
>> exact setting and reading with the same power and a different antenna,
>> again the number you get is not important
>>
>> the difference in the reading from the same exact positon of the units
>> being held and their settings etc is what you are after.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any change in the sensitivity controls between one antenna and another
>> will not be valid.
>>
>> Use the sensitivity control to adjust the reading to get at least half
>> scale, if too far away then get closer….
>>
>>
>>
>> Once set don’t change sensitivity while comparing….
>>
>> Also how close a person is to the transmitter, and meter is important as
>> well.
>>
>> Don’t change the way you hold each unit between each antenna your testing.
>>
>> Arms length, straight out away from body is easier to do and track.
>>
>>
>>
>> Distance from body and height above ground should be keep the same
>> between antennas.
>>
>> Don’t change who holds radio and transmits and who is holding meter
>> between antennas under test.
>>
>> Ideally, you would want a tripod to hold the antenna, and an extension
>> cable to the HT, and the operator
>>
>> opposite the FS meter side.
>>
>>
>>
>> IE the goal is to minimize all variables between two antennas you are
>> comparing.
>>
>> If you want to test the actual pattern of an antenna, you have to have a
>> set circle.
>>
>> Transmitter / antenna can’t move position, FS meter rotates around the
>> circle at various points logging reading.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* HiDARG-Members [mailto:hidarg-members-bounces at hidarg.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Mike Williams
>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 13, 2019 00:31
>> *To:* HiDARG Members
>> *Subject:* Re: [HiDARG-MEMBERS] Folding HT antenna
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder if any articles in QST or that experimenters journal about
>> antenna testing this way?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 11:27 PM Jeff Moore <tnetcenter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think an area like a football or soccer field would work great for this
>> or a large open park.   100 feet may not be far enough to get good
>> readings.  A 5 watt HT can throw out a signal that can reach miles
>> depending on terrain.  I'm pretty certain at this point that 10 or 20 feet
>> is way too close!  100 - 300 ft may even be too close.  We'll have to try
>> it out and see what we get.   Like I said before  "play with our radios"!
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff Moore  --  KE7ACY
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 11:01 PM Mike Williams <kb7klt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ya.. I've been camping and doing more for a bit..then I'll be around to
>> try that...The weekend of the 20th and the 27th looks good too...
>>
>>
>>
>> How big an area would we need?  5/10 acre grass fields? bigger? dunno
>>
>> de Mike KB7KLT
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 7:38 PM Jeff Moore <tnetcenter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't know how "scientific" any of this will be but I will document it
>> as best I can and share that with everyone.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Joe Barry,  you want to bring your antenna analyzer down and play
>> with us???
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff  Moore  --  KE7ACY
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 7:31 PM Steven Fletcher <srfletcher at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd love to see this documented even if the science of it is not perfect.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is something I have thought of doing
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW last night on our *UHF *simplex net (446.575) I did a shoot out
>> between the $20 guaranteed for life antenna and the $10 titanium Chinese
>> antenna
>>
>>
>>
>> the $10 antenna won
>>
>>
>>
>> not scientific but somewhat indicative
>>
>>
>>
>> steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve Fletcher
>>
>> Phone: 541-699-1909
>>
>> Grant County ARES Emergency Coordinator
>>
>> K7AA
>>
>> My Blog <http://drawingforth.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>>
>> From: "Jeff Moore" <tnetcenter at gmail.com>
>>
>> To: "HiDARG Members" <hidarg-members at hidarg.org>
>>
>> Sent: 7/12/2019 7:19:41 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [HiDARG-MEMBERS] Folding HT antenna
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>>
>>
>> I got a digital field strength meter from Kent at the meeting last night
>> - one of the QRPGuys kits.   Playing around with it last night in my room
>> was somewhat inconclusive - likely because I was way too close to get
>> meaningful readings from it ( 10 feet).  So I suspect that to do realistic
>> tests I need at least 100 feet of separation between the ht/antenna and the
>> meter.  I'll need help to do it.  It looks like I have access to a couple
>> of other Field Strength meters (one a military surplus unit and one that
>> looks like it could be homebrew with John Ogden's name on it).  I have no
>> idea if any of them actually work, the QRPGuys unit- seems to work but, I
>> haven't tested the other two units.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, do you want to get together with a bunch of HTs and antennas and see
>> what we can figure out???  We can go to a local park (open the invitation
>> to the entire club) and set up an ad hoc antenna test range and play
>> radio!  Or . . . .?
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff Moore  --  KE7ACY
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 1:31 PM Mike Williams <kb7klt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would be interested in comparing my cushcraft 4-ele too...also have
>> other homebrews to look at.
>>
>> de Mike KB7KLT
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 3:38 PM Jeff Moore <tnetcenter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> I figured there would be some interest in this antenna.  I have the
>> 28.3-inch version, there is one longer version and two shorter versions.
>> Note that the ad on Amazon also includes a couple of different length
>> extension cables, so be sure you're ordering the antenna not one of the
>> cables(unless you want one fo the cables:-)!
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm still testing this antenna, but so far it's at least as good as the
>> antennas I have and I think the longer (42-inch) version will work really
>> well with a GO BOX that has VHF/UHF capability.  It's also available with
>> both a female SMA connector and a male SMA connector so it will fit on a
>> lot of radios (provided you get the correct connector).
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, for the price - hard to beat!!!   here's the link:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07RRPC8VQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>
>>
>>
>> These are ham band antennas so be aware that they will probably not work
>> very well outside the bands - I noted a reviewer who was complaining that
>> the antenna didn't seem to work at 150 MHz or 466MHz (both outside the ham
>> bands).   Testing these antennas (or most HT antennas) with an antenna
>> analyzer can be tricky since the chassis of the ht is often used as a
>> pseudo-ground-plane and inserting the analyzer between the antenna and the
>> radio may not give you a good reading.  A better testing method is to use a
>> field strength meter at a set distance from the antenna/radio being tested.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have a field strength meter???  We could set up a quick and
>> dirty antenna test range that would reveal just how effective a particular
>> antenna is based on actual RF output!  I've heard that the results of such
>> testing can be very revealing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Enjoy!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> 7  3
>>
>> Jeff Moore  --  KE7ACY
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> --
>>
>> DOUG MILLER
>> dougmiller72 at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> --
>
>
> Casey Tucker  KI7UNJ
> https://twitter.com/KI7UNJ
> https://www.qrz.com/db/KI7UNJ
> http://bit.do/ki7unj
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://bit.do/ki7unj&sa=D&source=hangouts&ust=1521073499558000&usg=AFQjCNFcQLn6C9nmmvpQiBbD6XvN-QjKug>
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